Deficiency? Toxicity? Lettuce plants no bueno. Can anybody help? - Aquaponic Gardening2024-03-29T06:22:41Zhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/forum/topics/deficiency-toxicity-lettuce-plants-no-bueno-can-anybody-help?commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A484483&feed=yes&xn_auth=noGlad to be of some help. Keep…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-06-11:4778851:Comment:4844922013-06-11T19:49:34.911ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>Glad to be of some help. Keep us updated for sure...It'll probably help someone, somewhere, at some time or another.</p>
<p>Just be aware that pythium (root rot) seems to be <em>somewhat</em> more persistent than crown/collar rot and you may have to keep up a regime of cleanliness and re-inoculation through the warmer months. Iv'e not ever had a pythium outbreak in the AP GH...only in some of my smaller systems (mostly mineral hydro). Out of the 4000 or 5000 plants we've grown out…</p>
<p>Glad to be of some help. Keep us updated for sure...It'll probably help someone, somewhere, at some time or another.</p>
<p>Just be aware that pythium (root rot) seems to be <em>somewhat</em> more persistent than crown/collar rot and you may have to keep up a regime of cleanliness and re-inoculation through the warmer months. Iv'e not ever had a pythium outbreak in the AP GH...only in some of my smaller systems (mostly mineral hydro). Out of the 4000 or 5000 plants we've grown out bio-ponically only about a dozen or so have ever started to show signs of some pathogen or another...</p>
<p>Keep on top of things and wipe down surfaces. Toss infected media into a separate bucket and sterilize/inoculate it. You really want to do as many of those "little things" as you can...and be persistent about good housekeeping (because the pathogens surely will be) until the danger of re-infection passes...</p>
<p>Good luck to you Ben.</p> Whew! That was a bit exhaust…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-06-11:4778851:Comment:4844832013-06-11T16:45:24.487ZBenjamin Frimmerhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/BenjaminFrimmer
<p>Whew! That was a bit exhausting. But 7 hours later, the system is sterilized, innoculated, and ready to grow again! </p>
<p>Vlad, thank you again and again for your advice, patience, and all the time you have spent helping us. It has been invaluable and we truly appreciate it.</p>
<p>I will post in 2 weeks and let you know how it works out! Wish us luck!</p>
<p>-Ben</p>
<p>Whew! That was a bit exhausting. But 7 hours later, the system is sterilized, innoculated, and ready to grow again! </p>
<p>Vlad, thank you again and again for your advice, patience, and all the time you have spent helping us. It has been invaluable and we truly appreciate it.</p>
<p>I will post in 2 weeks and let you know how it works out! Wish us luck!</p>
<p>-Ben</p> Hey Benjamin...Here are two p…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-06-09:4778851:Comment:4840172013-06-09T11:55:44.154ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>Hey Benjamin...Here are two pics of some collar rot. The roots on the right belong to the stem in the middle. (I tossed the roots of the plant on the left before I thought to photograph them. The second pic are of the same plants, just turned around about 180 degrees so that you can see what the other side looks like. The one in the middle probably could have been saved but it's about at the tipping point. The plant on the left should be tossed IMO...even though the roots only looked…</p>
<p>Hey Benjamin...Here are two pics of some collar rot. The roots on the right belong to the stem in the middle. (I tossed the roots of the plant on the left before I thought to photograph them. The second pic are of the same plants, just turned around about 180 degrees so that you can see what the other side looks like. The one in the middle probably could have been saved but it's about at the tipping point. The plant on the left should be tossed IMO...even though the roots only looked slightly worse than those pictured on the right (which I consider not healthy and on their way to becoming a problem...but save-able).</p>
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2772248049?profile=original" target="_self"><img width="721" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2772248049?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721" class="align-full"/></a></p>
<p>The crown on the left has that gelatinous growth (well beyond the water soaked lesion that it started out as) 360 degrees around the crown/collar...While the middle one just has that one spot (hence why it is "more save-able). Weather and time of year will play a big role in how quickly things play out...</p>
<p><a href="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2772248731?profile=original" target="_self"><img width="721" src="http://storage.ning.com/topology/rest/1.0/file/get/2772248731?profile=RESIZE_1024x1024" width="721" class="align-full"/></a></p>
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<p>You can still try to save your plants for what it's worth, but in the future when you check them try to catch the problem much earlier...and remove plants right away. Inoculating seedlings at 2 to 3 phases of growth before putting them out into the main production area seems to help with this kind of thing. Any net pots from infected/removed plants NEED TO BE THOROUGHLY NUKED either with a bleach solution or with the H2O2. That is one vector that can easily be taken care of and should go a long ways in helping to not re-introduce spores/oospores...</p> Wow, from some of those new p…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-06-09:4778851:Comment:4838702013-06-09T07:49:37.548ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>Wow, from some of those new pics you posted it looks like some pythium (root rot) going on as well. Honestly, it looks a <em>little</em> bit worse than what I had imagined. Don't freak out or anything...just sayin'...and the treatment is still the same. </p>
<p>During your weekly genocidal rampages, you should be spot checking the roots and crowns of your plants. It really helps if you catch things early on, as you then have a much better chance of taking care of the problem (with less…</p>
<p>Wow, from some of those new pics you posted it looks like some pythium (root rot) going on as well. Honestly, it looks a <em>little</em> bit worse than what I had imagined. Don't freak out or anything...just sayin'...and the treatment is still the same. </p>
<p>During your weekly genocidal rampages, you should be spot checking the roots and crowns of your plants. It really helps if you catch things early on, as you then have a much better chance of taking care of the problem (with less drastic measures). So that is one of the things that you can do in the future. Many of these fungal/oomycetic pathogens can be pretty darn persistent...a lot of that probably has to do with their spores being so hardy. You know, like aphids...man, you leave just one female aphid alive and the next thing you know, you've got hundreds of aphids again...</p>
<p>If you have the time (if not, try to make the time) it would probably go a long ways towards your plight to remove the plants temporarily and totally sterilize the NFT components for spores. After you tackle the 'flushing' from the previous post (don't do it in reverse order).</p>
<p>A 7%-8% H2O2 solution and let stand for 20 minutes. And wipe down everything you can afterwards. And while the plants are already out of the system, you can dunk the remaining roots in a combo solution of <em>high</em> pH water and a <em>bacterial based</em> inoculant of your choice. Use whatever hydroxide (like KOH) you have on hand to raise the pH to about 9 and then add you bacterial inoculant...then dunk the plant roots and affected areas in that water. The fungi cant function at that pH level, yet the bacteria can. So it would be smart to give them a head start before putting the plants back into the system.</p>
<p>Inoculant your bio-filter as well while you are doing all of this.</p>
<p>If all of this seems like a pain in the ass...it is. But dealing with problems can be that way. (Hehe...there's a reason conventional farmers are so hooked on all those very strong, yet easily applied chemical products).</p>
<p>Increase O2 to the NFT channels in the coming weeks and months. As temps rise and O2 becomes depleted toward the end of your gulleys...that is an invitation to opportunistic pathogens.</p>
<p>Look into using some sort of anaerobic EM (effective micro-organisms). the Asian continent is light-years ahead of us folk on that one. If you can obtain a starter culture, you can perpetually brew batches yourself and not have to buy them again. This is one of the things we teach (shameless plug) how to do in the classes that I help Jon Parr with...Actually, talk to him about selling, trading, or giving you a starter culture, or at least pointing you in the right direction as to what is available and where over there in the US. It looks like there is some stuff on the market over there now, he may have some pointers. He's a pretty cool guy and will probably be real helpful (you can repay him by taking his class someday :)</p>
<p>Good luck. </p> I put this information togeth…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-06-09:4778851:Comment:4838602013-06-09T02:25:58.044ZBob Campbellhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/BobCampbell
<p>I put this information together so I would be able to find it again.</p>
<p><a href="http://chicogardens.blogspot.com/2013/06/fungal-diseases.html" target="_blank">chicogardens.blogspot.com/2013/06/fungal-diseases.html</a></p>
<p>I got most of my information from <a href="http://www.forestryimages.org/about/" target="_blank">Forest Images</a></p>
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<p>I put this information together so I would be able to find it again.</p>
<p><a href="http://chicogardens.blogspot.com/2013/06/fungal-diseases.html" target="_blank">chicogardens.blogspot.com/2013/06/fungal-diseases.html</a></p>
<p>I got most of my information from <a href="http://www.forestryimages.org/about/" target="_blank">Forest Images</a></p>
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<p></p> More pictures.....tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-06-09:4778851:Comment:4837622013-06-09T01:14:32.041ZBenjamin Frimmerhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/BenjaminFrimmer
<p>More pictures.....</p>
<p>More pictures.....</p> Vlad - thank you immensely fo…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-06-09:4778851:Comment:4839402013-06-09T01:11:44.292ZBenjamin Frimmerhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/BenjaminFrimmer
<p>Vlad - thank you immensely for that incredible advice. We are going to tackle that tomorrow and will definitely let you know how it works out. Hopefully we will be able to bring the system back to the luster it once was! </p>
<p>I am curious as to how this happened in the first place - I guess our grace period ran out - but I would love to know how to be proactive so that this will never happen again! I am sure our system is not the only one to have this problem, so hopefully others can…</p>
<p>Vlad - thank you immensely for that incredible advice. We are going to tackle that tomorrow and will definitely let you know how it works out. Hopefully we will be able to bring the system back to the luster it once was! </p>
<p>I am curious as to how this happened in the first place - I guess our grace period ran out - but I would love to know how to be proactive so that this will never happen again! I am sure our system is not the only one to have this problem, so hopefully others can learn from my mistakes and your incredible wealth of knowledge! </p>
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<p>Bob - you asked for pictures so here are the worst plants in the system. I tried to capture the root damage and leaf damage, as well as what I believe are spores or mold directly on the NFT channels. I can only post 3 pictures at a time, so I'll add more on another post. Enjoy.</p> Hi guys. (...and thanks Bob :…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-06-09:4778851:Comment:4837592013-06-09T00:30:08.797ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>Hi guys. (...and thanks Bob :) </p>
<p>Don't sweat it (but don't be complacent either). It surely can be weird seeing this stuff for the first time, but it's not the end of the world...unless you just sit back doing nothing and hope for the best...in which case it can turn into a nightmare before you know it...</p>
<p>If it's "only" 10-20% It'd be real wise to get rid of at least the worst 10% of the plants out right. Then go through and remove the partially effected roots of the remaining…</p>
<p>Hi guys. (...and thanks Bob :) </p>
<p>Don't sweat it (but don't be complacent either). It surely can be weird seeing this stuff for the first time, but it's not the end of the world...unless you just sit back doing nothing and hope for the best...in which case it can turn into a nightmare before you know it...</p>
<p>If it's "only" 10-20% It'd be real wise to get rid of at least the worst 10% of the plants out right. Then go through and remove the partially effected roots of the remaining 90% plants. Any roots that come away too easily are suspect and should be tossed (DO NOT compost them...if you guys compost stuff). </p>
<p>(The idea is to remove as much infected partially rotted root mass as possible. Once that is done, disconnect the NFT and flush it (with the remaining 90% of plants still in it) with a H2O2 solution (sodium percarbonate, perborate or whatever...of the liquid forms of H2O2 the 35% stuff is the most economical). While the plants are out of the NFT hole, spray down the outside and rim of the NFT hole(s) with a 1 to 3% solution of H2O2.</p>
<p>The solution for flushing the inside of the NFT should be mixed to 3% and dosed at a rate of 4ml per gallon (you might be able to get away with a bit more...but it would be risky business, so don't push it too much...maybe 5ml to 6ml per US gallon at 3% strength. The stronger the solution, the more effective BUT you run the risk of damaging healthy roots as well beyond a certain point. Even the 5 to 6ml that I stated is beyond what most people would recommend...so don't go too overboard)...</p>
<p>I would flush-flood the entire NFT tray up to and including the bottom of the lid...net pots media and all. If you can 'cap off' the NFT's outlet all the better. Cap off the outlet and let that H2O2 solution stand for 10 to 20 minutes. Drain (outside of the AP system) and repeat once more. The oxygen released by the H2O2 should chemically eat away any remaining rotted root/slime. Do this again once or twice but at a lower strength (1 to 2 ml per US gallon at 3%strength).</p>
<p>Re-connect the NFT. Spray the crown portion and media/net pots of the lettuce with potassium bicarb (KHCO3) solution (3 grams per litre) and a bacterial anti-fungal produce of your choice (or what ever is available). Follow the manufactures recommendations for solution strength. My B.subtilis is good to go at 0.5 to 1% Actinovate may have a different instruction set. Repeat inoculation either according to manufacturers instructions, or 5 to 7 days later.</p>
<p>The whole point is to lay waste to as many of the pathogenic microbes as possible, and then seed your beneficials right in to hopefully out compete them, since at those H2O2 solution strengths you probably wont be able to kill off many spores. To do that you would have to toss your plants and up the ante (since otherwise you'd likely just totally fry the roots at the strengths needed to kill of spores).</p>
<p>Hopefully you will be able to grow out the crop to harvest size. There is no realistic danger of any adverse human health effects that I am aware of.</p>
<p>I wanted to be as detailed and thorough as I could, but it's now 2am here and I need to be up a 6am again. If there is anything that you need cleared up or that your fuzzy on, just ask. </p>
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<p></p> @Benjamin Frimmer - Vlad is…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-06-08:4778851:Comment:4838552013-06-08T22:45:32.174ZBob Campbellhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/BobCampbell
<p>@<a href="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topic/listForContributor?user=19hdhqd6h5esb" class="fn url">Benjamin Frimmer </a> - Vlad is amazing once again.</p>
<p>This is an interesting topic and I would like to see some pictures of the affected area</p>
<p>@<a href="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topic/listForContributor?user=19hdhqd6h5esb" class="fn url">Benjamin Frimmer </a> - Vlad is amazing once again.</p>
<p>This is an interesting topic and I would like to see some pictures of the affected area</p> Wow Vlad, I'm kind of in shoc…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2013-06-08:4778851:Comment:4837532013-06-08T21:43:53.154ZBenjamin Frimmerhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/BenjaminFrimmer
<p>Wow Vlad, I'm kind of in shock right now. I've been Googling pictures of those fungal diseases you mentioned, and....sigh...it looks like you hit the nail right on the head. Now that you woke us up, we certainly do have Grey Mold and Downey and/or Powdery Mildew. It has been in the 80-90s and very humid and rainy for the last month, and that's when everything began to turn sour.</p>
<p>I guess on a good note is that only maybe 10-20% of the plants succumb to the mold, and the rest are…</p>
<p>Wow Vlad, I'm kind of in shock right now. I've been Googling pictures of those fungal diseases you mentioned, and....sigh...it looks like you hit the nail right on the head. Now that you woke us up, we certainly do have Grey Mold and Downey and/or Powdery Mildew. It has been in the 80-90s and very humid and rainy for the last month, and that's when everything began to turn sour.</p>
<p>I guess on a good note is that only maybe 10-20% of the plants succumb to the mold, and the rest are quite healthy. So perhaps that's a good sign of a bio-diverse system? Perhaps that is the work of the seaweed compost tea? Our plants haven't started looking like the pictures on Google searches, so hopefully we can stem this before it gets out of hand.</p>
<p>So anyways, on to the fix! As they say, the reason we fall down is so we can learn to pick ourselves up!</p>
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<p>We can certainly disconnect the NFT system completely - including the feed and drain.</p>
<p>We would love to save the plants if we can - unless there is a health issue here. We sell our lettuce to local restaurants, so the last thing I would ever want to do is get someone sick. If that possibility exists, then we will kill everything and start from scratch.</p>
<p>I can source all the products you mentioned, and I'm all ears for how to proceed.</p>
<p>Thanks Vlad. -Ben</p>