Clarification of PH understanding.

[Patrick]

Hi all, I'm brand new to AP and built a little micro system with a 20 gallon tank, some feeder gold fish and basic garden herbs to get my hands dirty so to speak before attempting a real system. I lost a couple of fish last night to an ammonia spike. I had been using a liquid test for ph that I wasn't real happy with as its hard to tell the exact color gradient, not to mention the levels go in increments of .5. So I bought an electronic tester for comparison (2 days to late I'm afraid). My question is I've read to bring down ph at this and other sources

http://theaquaponicsource.com/2011/02/07/starting-up-cycling-an-aqu...

to not use citric acid. But in the same sentences they recommend using General Hydro's buffer which I have. But on the back of the ph down bottle it clearly says "Contains phosphoric acid, Citric Acid and mono ammonium phosphate." Any help in deciphering this contradiction would be most helpful.

Thanks,
Pat

[Patrick]

I've added half as much salt as advised for fear of the strawberry and other herbs that might be sensitive and have noticed the ammonia level is the lowest it's been since early on at around 1. But the nitrites are higher at 2 maybe 2 1/2. The nitrates are down as well (10-15) but I think that's the plant growth, which for a guy who hasn't grown anything, ever, is impressive. I'll try to get pics of these micro chili peppers I can see. Rupert, TLC and any others, advice is always welcome and appreciated.

[Patrick]

Whoa, I forgot to check the ph which is even lower at around 5.8. Now I'm panicking. Water temp is . Never-mind, checking the water temp I just broke the mercury thermometer which was in the water when it broke. I just killed this experiment.

Thanks for all the help so far. This should be a lesson about internal thermometers, probably already is.

[TCLynx]

I was gonna say time to add a bit of chicken grit or oyster shells in a stocking to hang in the tank to keep your pH from falling further (need to buffer a bit.)

But I'm not sure what the status is now after the thermometer.

[Patrick]

Turns out all is not lost. Not mercury, some kind of ferrous silvery metal. A magnet pulled all the little bb's right out. That ruined my night last night thinking my experiment failed to clumsiness. I had about 3-4 gallons of evaporation in the last couple weeks so I added treated tap water which has a ph of around 10. It brought the tank up to 6.1. Are oyster shells available at garden stores? And how long does it usually take for the nitrites to disappear after the ammonia starts going away?

[TCLynx]

Chicken grit or crushed oyster shells are usually available from farm/feed stores (feed it to chickens to keep their egg shells strong enough.)

But crushed limestone can be used too.  As can small amounts of garden lime and potassium bicarbonate.  Sounds as if your tap water is hard enough to probably take care of all your calcium carbonate needs though so you might just want to get a package of potassium bicarbonate from a wine/brew supply place and alternate using spoon fulls of potassium bicarb with simply topping up your system with some tap water.

In a pinch even baking soda will elevate pH but you don't want to use that regularly since it will add too much sodium if used often.

The nitrite spike will go away some time after the ammonia falls but the nitrite spike some times seems to frustrate people since those bacteria that take care of that don't really get going very well until after the ammonia falls a bit and they also seem to be more temperature sensitive so are slower to really get going in cool water.  Patience, it will happen.

[Patrick]

OK, I've got what I think is good news. Not that I doubted anyone by any means, but the anticipation for the first time is excruciating. It warmed up significantly in the last 2 days and I think the second culture (nitrosorums?) kicked into gear. Nitrite levels are finally down since they were first measured (.25), ammonia is almost 0. But the nitrates are also down to maybe a 5. Shouldn't they be going up? My PH is still bouncing but I finally threw a panty ho with limestone. How much should have been my question first. I used about a silver dollar in spherical size. PH was up at a 6.1 yesterday and now back to 5.9.

Thanks

[Bryan Acred]

Hi Vlad,

When you say "super hard water", how hard is this? My hardness in my system is about 25. that's considered pretty hard but is nothing compared to my well water which can be in the 100 range without a softner.

I've got a 300g system and I am probably halfway through my cycle. My pH is 8. I have been dosing 1/3 cup (3oz) of Ace hardware Ammonia and in 24 hrs i get a reading of 0.25ppm. It used to read 1 ppm after 24hrs.  My nitrite is starting to show at .5 ppm.

I have plants in the two 4X8 growbed (pink granite media) and several show iron difficientcy. I previously put in half a gallon of Maxicrop w/Iron before I added any plants and before I started dosing Ammonia.

I am thinking that since the pH is 8, the plants are probably not benefiting from the nutrients as much but I need that pH at 8 for better bacteria colonization.

Is the hardness of my water (25) an issue?

thanks for any help everyone.

Vlad Jovanovic said:

Lowering your pH while cycling is absolutely counterproductive IMO. Your main concern at the beginning is cycling up your bio-filter. Meaning getting your microbes to initiate and complete colonization of all surfaces in your system. A pH of 8 to 8.5 is ideal for this. That same pH is also wonderful for the fish. Unless you have liquid rock for water there should be no need to mess with your pH at this point. Besides the nitrification process will acidify your water all on it's own (that is, if you give it a chance to get going).

Citric acid is great for killing off or inhibiting your bio-filter. IMO... Plain old HCL gets my vote for 'best' choice for a number of reasons. (AFTER YOU ARE ALL DONE CYCLING AND STILL FEEL YOU NEED TO LOWER pH...Though realistically, unless you have a buffering media like limestone gravel, or super hard top-up water, in the future you will more than likely be needing to RAISE your pH every once in a while and not lower it).

No contradiction, that pH Down product will do what is says just fine, BUT it seems to be made for use in a sterile hydroponic environment where you don't have a biofilter (bacteria) to worry about.

I'm not saying it will kill off an established bio-filter necessarily, but it certainly wouldn't help an establishing one...I wouldn't use it, especially since there seem to be much better choices out there... (That product doesn't seem like the best of pH Down choices for an AP store to sell, especially when you consider that HCL will, in addition to lowering your pH, will bind Iron(III) into Iron (II)  and the Chloride released could only help your fish tolerate Nitrite spikes better...which is why people add salt (NaCl), for the Chloride)...

But again, I wouldn't bother lower my pH while cycling with anything. It'll just slow cycling down and stress out the probably already stressed fish.

What is the pH of your system water pH anyways?

[Bryan Acred]

Sorry, I am new at this. I think I should of started a new thread, but I saw how this thread was very relevant to what I have going on. Apologies if I posted in error.

blessings!

bryan

[Vlad Jovanovic]

Hey Bryan, 

There are a confusing number of "units" being used to refer to hardness values, including different German, French, English and American degrees of notating hardness...Also there is a difference (and more confusion) between GH (General Hardness...the amount of dissolved Calcium and Magnesium) and KH (Carbonate Hardness...well kinda self explanatory...except that it gets confusing because the Calcium in the GH comes mostly in the form of dissolved Calcium Carbonate, and the carbonates in the KH come mostly in the same form as well...so the two are kinda interconnected)... So I'm not sure what "25" or "100" really mean...if you can, it would be great if you could express those values in "mg/L"...Then of course there is Total Hardness...

But I'm gonna guess that your well water comes from a limestone aquafier, so is high in Calcium carbonates (or rather bicarbonates...since they are dissolved in water...but we'll just keep calling them plain 'ol carbonates)

That being said... I (to simplify things) used the term "hard water" to mean carbonate hardness since to me it seems the terms are synonymous in most folks heads... I know that "technically" this is wrong...but hey! everyone seems to be doin' it...

...and KH has the most impact on pH...

Not to beat a dead horse, so stop me if you've heard this one before...but for every 1mg of ammonia that your microbes convert to nitrates...it takes about between 7.5mg to 8.5mg (depending on which waste water treatment study you read) of carbonates and about 4.5mg of oxygen.

So the high (ish) pH causing KH shouldn't be a problem for the microbes...within reason... (they really like the higher pH while trying to establish themselves). Your microbes should eventually "eat up" that "hardness" (meaning neutralize the alkaline/carbonates by the production of carbonic acid which is produce through the nitrification process...thereby bringing your waters pH down).

So no...weather English, German, French, or American units are used, I doubt (IMO) that a system hardness of "25" would be problematic (unless 25 happens to means "soft" in whatever scale your using). Of course the plants are a different matter. Your right in that they may not be able to utilize certain nutrients at that pH...You could always foliar feed if you feel you need to.

Depending on how things balance out...you might not need to ever 'have to' add a buffering agent later on down the line if you are topping up with your well water...you may have to pre-treat (add acid to) that top up water...or use rain water or RO filter it if it causes your pH to remain high (because of its Carbonate Hardness). The "super hard" term was in reference to top-up water...To mean high KH (and therefore high pH) top up water...

Oh yeah, I'm not really too sure if Maxi-Crop + Iron will work well at a pH of 8? It might, but I believe that it's Iron comes in the form of Iron Sulfate...A chelated iron product is probably a better bet for a high pH/new/cycling system scenario...Of course once your pH comes down it's probably a moot point if you have a decent fish feed.

I apologies if the above is a bit disjointed

Bryan Acred said:

Hi Vlad,

When you say "super hard water", how hard is this? My hardness in my system is about 25. that's considered pretty hard but is nothing compared to my well water which can be in the 100 range without a softner.

I've got a 300g system and I am probably halfway through my cycle. My pH is 8. I have been dosing 1/3 cup (3oz) of Ace hardware Ammonia and in 24 hrs i get a reading of 0.25ppm. It used to read 1 ppm after 24hrs.  My nitrite is starting to show at .5 ppm.

I have plants in the two 4X8 growbed (pink granite media) and several show iron difficientcy. I previously put in half a gallon of Maxicrop w/Iron before I added any plants and before I started dosing Ammonia.

I am thinking that since the pH is 8, the plants are probably not benefiting from the nutrients as much but I need that pH at 8 for better bacteria colonization.

Is the hardness of my water (25) an issue?

thanks for any help everyone.

Vlad Jovanovic said:

Lowering your pH while cycling is absolutely counterproductive IMO. Your main concern at the beginning is cycling up your bio-filter. Meaning getting your microbes to initiate and complete colonization of all surfaces in your system. A pH of 8 to 8.5 is ideal for this. That same pH is also wonderful for the fish. Unless you have liquid rock for water there should be no need to mess with your pH at this point. Besides the nitrification process will acidify your water all on it's own (that is, if you give it a chance to get going).

Citric acid is great for killing off or inhibiting your bio-filter. IMO... Plain old HCL gets my vote for 'best' choice for a number of reasons. (AFTER YOU ARE ALL DONE CYCLING AND STILL FEEL YOU NEED TO LOWER pH...Though realistically, unless you have a buffering media like limestone gravel, or super hard top-up water, in the future you will more than likely be needing to RAISE your pH every once in a while and not lower it).

No contradiction, that pH Down product will do what is says just fine, BUT it seems to be made for use in a sterile hydroponic environment where you don't have a biofilter (bacteria) to worry about.

I'm not saying it will kill off an established bio-filter necessarily, but it certainly wouldn't help an establishing one...I wouldn't use it, especially since there seem to be much better choices out there... (That product doesn't seem like the best of pH Down choices for an AP store to sell, especially when you consider that HCL will, in addition to lowering your pH, will bind Iron(III) into Iron (II)  and the Chloride released could only help your fish tolerate Nitrite spikes better...which is why people add salt (NaCl), for the Chloride)...

But again, I wouldn't bother lower my pH while cycling with anything. It'll just slow cycling down and stress out the probably already stressed fish.

What is the pH of your system water pH anyways?

[Bryan Acred]

Hey Vlad,

Thanks for responding. The knowledge that you and others share is very valuable and much appreciated. You are correct that our well water is from an area "loaded" with limestone so I had some water brought in from another source. It was "treated" so I let it circulate for several days in the sun before I added anything to my system to insure the chlorine was out.

The hardness kit that I have measures in grains per gallon. I was curious as to how hard the water was from the other source since we have had to use it before in our home due to our well pump needing to be replaced a year or so ago.

You aren't beating a dead horse. The info is appreciated as many here are learning. I was hoping that the hardness of that water wouldn't be much of an issue. Also,I am foliage feeding since I have seen some yellowing so I am glad you also mentioned that.

Several things have occurred recently with my system. I received some "inoculated rock" with worms from Rob Nash to place into my two grow beds. He also was kind enough to give me about 4.5 gallons of Talapia "poo" water. I am about 3 weeks into my cycle and after placing this in my tank, I believe it has kicked the system into over-drive.

I haven't added fish yet, but I have been dosing about 3oz of Ammonia each day. That normally gives a measurement of 2ppm after several hours. Normally after 24 hours it has been giving me a reading of 1ppm, but after the addition of Rob's items I am seeing less than 0.25ppm of Ammonia and Nitrites after 24 hours. My pH has gone from a steady reading of 8 to 7.8 this morning.

I went ahead and dosed my system with 4oz of Ammonia this morning and will measure it tonight and tomorrow. If I can get these readings consistently for the next few days, I believe I may be able to add some fish.

Thank you again for all the information you share here.

Shalom!

[Vlad Jovanovic]

Well it sounds like your off to a good start Bryan. 

It appears that there are about 17.11 mg/L in 1 grain per gallon...so at 100 grains per gallon...holy crap, that would qualify as super-duper-hard water (if the above is correct and we're comparing apples to apples)...

Even 25 grains per gallons would qualifies as "hard" (but reasonable).

You might try pre-treated your well water for top ups if bringing water in from another source is a pain...

Keep in mind that your worms might need a food source until you get fish and time to build up some fish poop in the media...I know some people (Aussies) like to put in a piece of banana peel in the grow-bed(s), but I do not have any experience with that...

So did you get a repeat on those ammonia readings? You pH should probably continue to come down steadily (you can always bring it back up with that liquid rock you have in your well :)

Out of curiosity...what level did your nitrite spike top out at?
 
Bryan Acred said:

Hey Vlad,

Thanks for responding. The knowledge that you and others share is very valuable and much appreciated. You are correct that our well water is from an area "loaded" with limestone so I had some water brought in from another source. It was "treated" so I let it circulate for several days in the sun before I added anything to my system to insure the chlorine was out.

The hardness kit that I have measures in grains per gallon. I was curious as to how hard the water was from the other source since we have had to use it before in our home due to our well pump needing to be replaced a year or so ago.

You aren't beating a dead horse. The info is appreciated as many here are learning. I was hoping that the hardness of that water wouldn't be much of an issue. Also,I am foliage feeding since I have seen some yellowing so I am glad you also mentioned that.

Several things have occurred recently with my system. I received some "inoculated rock" with worms from Rob Nash to place into my two grow beds. He also was kind enough to give me about 4.5 gallons of Talapia "poo" water. I am about 3 weeks into my cycle and after placing this in my tank, I believe it has kicked the system into over-drive.

I haven't added fish yet, but I have been dosing about 3oz of Ammonia each day. That normally gives a measurement of 2ppm after several hours. Normally after 24 hours it has been giving me a reading of 1ppm, but after the addition of Rob's items I am seeing less than 0.25ppm of Ammonia and Nitrites after 24 hours. My pH has gone from a steady reading of 8 to 7.8 this morning.

I went ahead and dosed my system with 4oz of Ammonia this morning and will measure it tonight and tomorrow. If I can get these readings consistently for the next few days, I believe I may be able to add some fish.

Thank you again for all the information you share here.

Shalom!

[Vlad Jovanovic]

Patrick,

That's a really, really low pH for a bacterial colony that is trying to get established (cycling)...You can get away with that kind of stuff once you have a matured established system, but it would seem prudent to get that pH at least up near, or slightly above 7 for now.

Screw the plants, take care of the bacteria's needs for now and buffer up your water...You really need them to 'go forth and multiply', which is probably mighty difficult for them at that pH. (high5's-low6)

And on a nit picky note...The 'second' culture responsible for turning nitrite into nitrate has until recently (and in many places still is) been accredited to nitrosomona...We are now coming to find that this is not really the case. Recent (not that recent really) studies are showing that the bacteria responsible for converting nitrites into nitrates in freshwater scenarios is nitrospira. 

Hopefully the textbooks and web will catch up and give the little guys the credit they deserve :)

 

Patrick said:

OK, I've got what I think is good news. Not that I doubted anyone by any means, but the anticipation for the first time is excruciating. It warmed up significantly in the last 2 days and I think the second culture (nitrosorums?) kicked into gear. Nitrite levels are finally down since they were first measured (.25), ammonia is almost 0. But the nitrates are also down to maybe a 5. Shouldn't they be going up? My PH is still bouncing but I finally threw a panty ho with limestone. How much should have been my question first. I used about a silver dollar in spherical size. PH was up at a 6.1 yesterday and now back to 5.9.

Thanks