Bell siphon inquire

[Leo White Bear]

Morning-
  I am a new-be to aquaponics and was wondering if it is imperitive that the bell drains totally or not and why?  I have made a small "barrel-ponics" system utalizing an 8" cpvc stand pipe and a clear food-grade jar for the bell.

  The unit cycles great but the bell only drains to 1" below the top of the stand pipe.  When the unit fills again the siphon works great and drains the resivour but the bell remains filled to within 1" of the top of the stand pipe.  Does anyone see why this would be detrimental in any way.  Thank you.
Leo White Bear

[TCLynx]

Now I expect some of the suggestions are kinda of an academic nature just trying to figure out "why" this seeming impossibility is happening and I admit I'm curious too, so if you do test out the suggestions, I would love to hear the results, but don't go messing up a part that is working. 

 

Luckily testing out a different bell shouldn't really be a big deal since it probably only means swapping and you can always swap back.

 

 

[Harold Sukhbir]

Hi All,

I agree with TC, it ain't broke so why fix it? But then again that's the joy AP brings. I've learn't so many things in AP by experimentation, that's how we'll all learn, by personal experience. When you learn by doing, then there's no limit to what you can do in AP, plus what you learn you can share it with someone else. So Mr. Leo if you learn something, by playing around with your bell my hope is that you share it with me!

[Gary Searle]

Perhaps I too owe you an apology for my curt response. I've been burning the candle at both ends, but fatigue is no excuse for rudeness, so I apologize

 

To my eyes it looks like the pipe coming from the tank above the growbeds is backpitched to the tank (trapped), which would solve the mystery of why it's holding water, and in this configuration I don't see it causing a problem. The configuration does have me confused though (it don't take much), what purpose does the bell siphon serve? What is the top tanks purpose? I'm new at this too.

Leo White Bear said:

Alpine and Gary-

  I realize that the discharge tubes are a bit askew, I did that so the beds would fill equally.  My thinking is that the lower tube will discharge more water from the reservoir filling that side and equallizing the water level, hey it works!  I do appreciate everyones help with this inquiry and I also wish to give my utmost appoligies to you Gary, I didn't mean to dissmiss what you felt may be an applicable indication of what may be happining with the bell siphon.  After my accident, I have a difficult time wrapping my head around more than a few things at a time, I must be focussed on a single problem, get the situation under control and move on.  I do get confused easier now that before, I didn't mean any disrespect.  You people are the "Guru's" here and I thank you for all your assistance.  Be well.

White Bear

Alpine Aquaponics said:

Your line does look a little tilted in the pic, that is the only explanation.  Unless your bell alters gravity, but I'm doubting that one

 

btw, gary had a valid question. if you are asking about something, it's better not to assume you know what's important info or not

[TCLynx]

Hay Gary, it's a barrel ponics system and the siphon is in the "flush tank"  Here is a link to Travis Hughey's Barrel Ponics Manual if you haven't seen it before Barrel Ponics PDF

Gary Searle said:

Perhaps I too owe you an apology for my curt response. I've been burning the candle at both ends, but fatigue is no excuse for rudeness, so I apologize

 

To my eyes it looks like the pipe coming from the tank above the growbeds is backpitched to the tank (trapped), which would solve the mystery of why it's holding water, and in this configuration I don't see it causing a problem. The configuration does have me confused though (it don't take much), what purpose does the bell siphon serve? What is the top tanks purpose? I'm new at this too.

[Gary Searle]

Thanks TCLynx, I had heard of barrelponics but never saw that before.

[Leo White Bear]

Friends-

  Being new to AP, it may take some time to come-up-to-speed with the terminology.  Please pardon my ignorance.  I have been calling the "flush tank" the "reservoir".  I guess you learn something new everyday.

  To my reconing the Flush tank does a dual putpose, it helps regulate the timing of each flood cycle of the grow beds and is another area for the bacteria to grow and assist in the converting of the nitrite to nitrate thus cleaner water goes back to the fish.  I appreciate all your assistance.  Be well

White Bear

[TCLynx]

I expect it only got the name flush tank because that is where the original designs puts the "flush" flap valve like from a toilet.

[Harold Sukhbir]

Hi Leo,

So the purpose of the "reservoir" is to distribute water to the grow beds. Your bell flushes water and this means the cycles are faster and closer in duration at the present setting, a little bit of water flowing at closer intervals.Also you have two pipes terminating at the head of the two beds. So a small volume of water concentrated at this one point in the GB could mean that the rest of the top layers of the bed will be dryer than here. Roots of seedlings further away from this entry point may not get the moisture they need to grow. You can fix 2 horizontal pipes with holes drilled at intervals(Grid pipes) from these terminating ends to more evenly distribute water along the length of the beds or you can increase the water cycle time and also introduce more volume by allowing the bell to drain the entire "reservoir". These things I've mentioned may not turn out to be a problem but at least you can think about them and if you do run up against something you'll already have and idea you can try.

[Leo White Bear]

Harold-

  you are correct, in a "barrel-ponics" system, the "reservoir" retains the water from the fish tank to be flushed into the grow beds.  The amount and timing can be regulated just by speeding or slowing the amount of time the reservoir fills.  You want to turn over all the water in the fish tank in 1 hour.  Depending on the size of the reservoir the length of time that it takes to do this can be regulated by how fast you set the flow from the pump.  If you have, let's say, a 100 gallon fish tank and your reservoir has a 25 gallon limit, you need to have it fill and drain, four times an hour. This is a fairly quick fill, I want this reservoir to fill at least twice an hour as the bacteria therein has a better chance to convert the nitrites.

  From reading on this group, I believe that you want a 1" deep, dry layer of grow bed medium.  The roots of a well established seedling, ready to be put in place, has roots longer than 1", so this dry area is a buffer to prevent the plant from rotting in the bed.  If your seedling doesn't have these well established roots they can be placed closer to the discharge tubes from the reservoir, where there is more moisture and replanted later when the do get established.  This is my reasoning as I don't even have my systems pump installed yet, if I'm wrong, please correct me.  Thank you and TC for all your assistance.  Be well

White Bear

Harold Sukhbir said:

Hi Leo,

So the purpose of the "reservoir" is to distribute water to the grow beds. Your bell flushes water and this means the cycles are faster and closer in duration at the present setting, a little bit of water flowing at closer intervals.Also you have two pipes terminating at the head of the two beds. So a small volume of water concentrated at this one point in the GB could mean that the rest of the top layers of the bed will be dryer than here. Roots of seedlings further away from this entry point may not get the moisture they need to grow. You can fix 2 horizontal pipes with holes drilled at intervals(Grid pipes) from these terminating ends to more evenly distribute water along the length of the beds or you can increase the water cycle time and also introduce more volume by allowing the bell to drain the entire "reservoir". These things I've mentioned may not turn out to be a problem but at least you can think about them and if you do run up against something you'll already have and idea you can try.

[Harold Sukhbir]

Hi Leo,

From your design of growbeds i see two lower drain pipes and two overflows. Assuming from what i see in the attached pictures, then the water from the bell will drain through the general area of entry and gravitate downward and should collect for about a 2 inches layer at the base, finally draining into the FT via the lower drain pipes.Even though gravel offers tremendous capillary action/wicking ability, it would mean that most of the top layers of media moving away from entry point will become progressively dryer the further out you go, and that would mean seedlings planted here may not get sufficient moisture to grow.What do you think?

[TCLynx]

The barrel ponics design with the fast "flush" of the flush tank generally means that the grow bed floods pretty good and then will slow drain.  Basically the bed fills faster than it can drain and so most of the bed gets the proper flood height like in normal timed flood and drain but the pump is not on a timer.

[Harold Sukhbir]

Hi TC,

I imagined that this is what happens with this design normally, however with just a minimal flush due to the limit with the siphon I'm wondering if this will be sufficient?