Foam - Aquaponic Gardening2024-03-29T13:26:18Zhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/forum/topics/4778851:Topic:28266?groupUrl=raftdeepwaterculturegrowers&feed=yes&xn_auth=noJoe Bifano said:
I just got…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-08-06:4778851:Comment:3801312012-08-06T15:32:52.960ZDave Lovehttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/DaveLove
<p><br></br> <br></br> <cite>Joe Bifano said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/4778851:Topic:28266?groupUrl=raftdeepwaterculturegrowers&commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A378010&xg_source=msg_com_gr_forum#4778851Comment377950"><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I just got off the phone with my manufacturer and another guy who does custom cutting and they both said the same thing about the law that was passed and every foam has to have the fire…</p>
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<p><br/> <br/> <cite>Joe Bifano said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/4778851:Topic:28266?groupUrl=raftdeepwaterculturegrowers&commentId=4778851%3AComment%3A378010&xg_source=msg_com_gr_forum#4778851Comment377950"><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>I just got off the phone with my manufacturer and another guy who does custom cutting and they both said the same thing about the law that was passed and every foam has to have the fire retardant in it even the blue board. They can't get it any other way they said.</p>
<p><br/>I used polystyrene 2-1/2 pound and it is really heavy duty. I am 170 lbs and can rest most of my weight on it to reach and it hardly goes under the water. I have to really push to get it to go under.</p>
<p></p>
<p>But on the special type of things to be made, what exactly are you looking for to have made. They were telling me for cutting polystyrene with there hot wire machines they would have a lead in cut of 1/16" to make a hole.</p>
<p>What kind of a mold are you all looking at making?</p>
<p>Also if there were a food industry foam manufacturer would they use fire retardant?</p>
<p></p>
<p>HI JOE, </p>
<p>You are correct, foam used as containers by the food and pharmaceutical industries does not contain flame retardants. I actually toured a Mid-Atlantic polystyrene plant a couple of weeks ago that makes coolers (i.e. "styrafoam" coolers, but that a brand-name). (<a href="http://www.lifoam.com/" target="_blank">http://www.lifoam.com/</a>) </p>
<p>There are other options for foam besides rigid foam insulation. They don't typically make 4'x8' sheets, without a special order, but they do make other products like 2'x3' coolers that are about the right thickness for rafts. I'm trying them out and will report back in a week or two.</p>
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</blockquote> When was this law passed in t…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-07-31:4778851:Comment:3780102012-07-31T20:18:09.359ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>When was this law passed in the US, if you or they happen to know?</p>
<p>Again, a <em>real easy and painless</em> thing to do is to check with Beaver Plastics Canada, since they make a whole range of different products for both insulation as well as horticulture...comes with pre-made holes for lettuce and everything, don't see why the Canadians would make them use any flame retardant for a product that is designed, engineered, and intended for horiculture..? Cheaper than the blueboard as…</p>
<p>When was this law passed in the US, if you or they happen to know?</p>
<p>Again, a <em>real easy and painless</em> thing to do is to check with Beaver Plastics Canada, since they make a whole range of different products for both insulation as well as horticulture...comes with pre-made holes for lettuce and everything, don't see why the Canadians would make them use any flame retardant for a product that is designed, engineered, and intended for horiculture..? Cheaper than the blueboard as well, or so I hear...</p> I just got off the phone with…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-07-31:4778851:Comment:3779502012-07-31T14:37:36.846ZJoe Bifanohttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/JoeBifano
<p>I just got off the phone with my manufacturer and another guy who does custom cutting and they both said the same thing about the law that was passed and every foam has to have the fire retardant in it even the blue board. They can't get it any other way they said.</p>
<p><br></br>I used polystyrene 2-1/2 pound and it is really heavy duty. I am 170 lbs and can rest most of my weight on it to reach and it hardly goes under the water. I have to really push to get it to go under.</p>
<p></p>
<p>But…</p>
<p>I just got off the phone with my manufacturer and another guy who does custom cutting and they both said the same thing about the law that was passed and every foam has to have the fire retardant in it even the blue board. They can't get it any other way they said.</p>
<p><br/>I used polystyrene 2-1/2 pound and it is really heavy duty. I am 170 lbs and can rest most of my weight on it to reach and it hardly goes under the water. I have to really push to get it to go under.</p>
<p></p>
<p>But on the special type of things to be made, what exactly are you looking for to have made. They were telling me for cutting polystyrene with there hot wire machines they would have a lead in cut of 1/16" to make a hole.</p>
<p>What kind of a mold are you all looking at making?</p>
<p>Also if there were a food industry foam manufacturer would they use fire retardant?</p>
<p></p> Holy shit! 18K just for the s…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-07-31:4778851:Comment:3777862012-07-31T13:47:09.855ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>Holy shit! 18K just for the stupid mold?!? Try calling or writing Beaver plastics and/or see with Jon Parr (since he uses/has a bunch of them) about what he knows...</p>
<p>As far as testing...hmm...IDK. Since you're in Texas, you might try checking with <span>Arnold Schecter, MD, MPH, professor of environmental and occupational health at the University of Texas School of Public Health in Dallas.</span> </p>
<p>He has recently tested for HBCD flame retardant in a bunch of common food items…</p>
<p>Holy shit! 18K just for the stupid mold?!? Try calling or writing Beaver plastics and/or see with Jon Parr (since he uses/has a bunch of them) about what he knows...</p>
<p>As far as testing...hmm...IDK. Since you're in Texas, you might try checking with <span>Arnold Schecter, MD, MPH, professor of environmental and occupational health at the University of Texas School of Public Health in Dallas.</span> </p>
<p>He has recently tested for HBCD flame retardant in a bunch of common food items (36 items, 15 of which came back with detectable amounts present). Industry of course doesn't think that that is a problem, he and some other scientists feel that it may, and gov't...well...gov't is probably still trying to figure out how to spell "<span>hexabromocyclododecane" and wondering why they can't find any in the toothe-paste isle...That would be my best suggestion at the moment...</span></p>
<p><span><a href="http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20120530/flame-retardant-found-in-some-common-foods">http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20120530/flame-retardant-found-in-some-common-foods</a></span></p> I think the bottom line is to…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-07-31:4778851:Comment:3776552012-07-31T13:09:52.660ZRob Nashhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/RobNash
<p>I think the bottom line is to do our own tests. There are plenty of us who have had rafts floating for more than 2 years... we need to find someone who can test the water to determine if its contaminated with these products. Any thoughts on what type of facility would do those types of tests? I would think as a consumer, there may be a government group that would do it for free. If so what should we ask them to look for?</p>
<p>I think the bottom line is to do our own tests. There are plenty of us who have had rafts floating for more than 2 years... we need to find someone who can test the water to determine if its contaminated with these products. Any thoughts on what type of facility would do those types of tests? I would think as a consumer, there may be a government group that would do it for free. If so what should we ask them to look for?</p> Vlad, I did locate a small ma…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-07-31:4778851:Comment:3778552012-07-31T13:04:03.754ZRob Nashhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/RobNash
<p>Vlad, I did locate a small manufacturer that does packaging inserts made from foam. ..they dont use retardants at all. we talked and he understood the needs and said he would get back to us with a quote. ...$18,000 just to make the mold. then a 10,000 minimum order, with the per unit costs for a 2'x4' was $40. ...so it can be done, but just like everything in Tx... Go Big, or Go Home</p>
<p>Vlad, I did locate a small manufacturer that does packaging inserts made from foam. ..they dont use retardants at all. we talked and he understood the needs and said he would get back to us with a quote. ...$18,000 just to make the mold. then a 10,000 minimum order, with the per unit costs for a 2'x4' was $40. ...so it can be done, but just like everything in Tx... Go Big, or Go Home</p> Again, an MSDS sheet would be…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-07-29:4778851:Comment:3771252012-07-29T17:32:42.896ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>Again, an MSDS sheet would be a huge help (if nothing else than to compare regional msds sheets)...It may be that here in the no man's land of south eastern europe, no such regulations exist for DOW or anyone else here (we are not part of the EU) and fire retardants are an added manufacturing expense...That may or may not be the difference.</p>
<p>As of yesterday when I tried to check, the links to the msds sheets and literature for the US market on DOW's site is down...DNS error…</p>
<p>Again, an MSDS sheet would be a huge help (if nothing else than to compare regional msds sheets)...It may be that here in the no man's land of south eastern europe, no such regulations exist for DOW or anyone else here (we are not part of the EU) and fire retardants are an added manufacturing expense...That may or may not be the difference.</p>
<p>As of yesterday when I tried to check, the links to the msds sheets and literature for the US market on DOW's site is down...DNS error blabla...</p>
<p>The Dow MSDS sheet I was sent some while ago had no such HBCD retardants listed. There are different msds sheets for different countries/regions...HBCD (hexabromocyclododecane) flame retardant is being banned globally (with the possible exception of the US of course)...Sure would be nice to know what is going on with that one...The plot thickens as some companies have voluntarily stopped using HBCD as a flame retardant (as it is not the only retardant suitable, just the cheapest for industry) for certain markets. I know it's kinda weird but <em>companies</em> here have a bit of a track record for 'voluntarilly' taking such measures...Not because they're swell guys, but because <em>people</em> here here have a bit of a track record of mass boycotts and protesting...</p>
<p>Rob, polystyrene is pretty stable unless exposed to non-polar liquids or heat/flame...the HBCD is anyone's guess though...</p>
<p>There's a guy (professor I believe) named B.A. Kratky who came up with a growing system that's basically a pontoon DWC raft with an air space between the top of the water and the bottom of the raft (1996, Non-Circulating Hydroponic Methods, DPL Hawaii, Hilo, HI.)... and a guy named Giorgio on this site, also from Hawaii, who seems to have modified this design...<a href="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/group/raftdeepwaterculturegrowers?groupUrl=raftdeepwaterculturegrowers&id=4778851%3AGroup%3A28261&page=6#comments">http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/group/raftdeepwaterculturegrowers?groupUrl=raftdeepwaterculturegrowers&id=4778851%3AGroup%3A28261&page=6#comments</a> (maybe Giorgio came up with this independent of any knowledge of Kratky's system IDK) it might be worth looking into esp. if this HBCD thing in the US turns out to be a bust and you need a different raft material...There's also a swell company in Canada Beaver Plastics) that makes rafts specifically for the purpose of growing food that might be worth checking out. I doubt they have reason to use flame retardants in that particular line of products, (they appear to make a range of products for a variety of intended uses) but you can always call/write to confirm (if Jon Parr hasn't already)... ...<a href="http://www.beaverplastics.com/productBrochures.html">http://www.beaverplastics.com/productBrochures.html</a></p>
<p>Also, you may want to see with a small polystyrene factory (if such a place exists where you alive, I know they like everything BIG in TX hehe) to see if they'll produce a batch for you without any flame retardant (in the US this is apt to be the problematic HBCD..? </p>
<p></p> I have my doubts that the foa…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-07-29:4778851:Comment:3770622012-07-29T15:12:34.321ZSiggy Ghttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/SiggyG
<p>I have my doubts that the foam leaches anything significant out after the initial couple days of contact to water. The DOW board is closed cell and water impervious. So only the chemicals at the surface have opportunity to leach into the water. If this is really a concern I would suggest a multi step cleaning after you have finished any cutting.</p>
<p>1. wash with dish soap.</p>
<p>2. Scrub down with a acidic solution that has a pH lower than you ever expect to experience in the system.…</p>
<p>I have my doubts that the foam leaches anything significant out after the initial couple days of contact to water. The DOW board is closed cell and water impervious. So only the chemicals at the surface have opportunity to leach into the water. If this is really a concern I would suggest a multi step cleaning after you have finished any cutting.</p>
<p>1. wash with dish soap.</p>
<p>2. Scrub down with a acidic solution that has a pH lower than you ever expect to experience in the system. Diluting vinegar or muratic acid to the right ph for example.</p>
<p>3 Scrub down with a caustic cleaner such as TSP.</p>
<p>4 rinse well.</p>
<p>Those steps should get the majority of any solubles off the surface.</p>
<p>Or find something that adheres well to it and doesn't leach anything out, coat it with that.</p> I am sad to report... when i…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-07-29:4778851:Comment:3768532012-07-29T13:57:01.096ZRob Nashhttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/RobNash
<p>I am sad to report... when i went to pick up my blue board, i had a conversation with the guy and he said all building products must have a flame retardant added... even the Dow Blue Board. He was very certain that they all use the same one. ...i mentioned the forum and all the to-do about the MSDS and how we were sure the blue was the safest etc. and he said "sorry, but the law says they have to add it to all construction materials" ..now this guy makes foam products, and mixes the chems…</p>
<p>I am sad to report... when i went to pick up my blue board, i had a conversation with the guy and he said all building products must have a flame retardant added... even the Dow Blue Board. He was very certain that they all use the same one. ...i mentioned the forum and all the to-do about the MSDS and how we were sure the blue was the safest etc. and he said "sorry, but the law says they have to add it to all construction materials" ..now this guy makes foam products, and mixes the chems and stuff at the factory, on site, hes not just a reseller. Alamo Foam, San Antonio Tx</p>
<p>However, he did say that he doesn’t know of a single study that proves that it leaches out... but of course he didnt know if any of the studies were done in DWC ...or any food growing system.</p>
<p>ARRRR!!! all of this while im loading the 20 sheets($800) on my trailer....</p>
<p>do we need to try wooden rafts? if so what type of wood could float for 30-45 days without getting saturated?... perhaps they would have to be rotated in and out of the system to allow them to dry.</p> Dave or Josh, could you pleas…tag:aquaponicgardening.ning.com,2012-07-28:4778851:Comment:3766812012-07-28T21:12:29.233ZVlad Jovanovichttps://aquaponicgardening.ning.com/profile/VladJovanovic
<p>Dave or Josh, could you please link a copy of the MSDS sheet you have from DOW, since the one I was have does not list HBCD or any brominated flame retardent as being used in DOW's formulation. Owen Corning, and Insulfoam, yes, but again DOW's specific MSDS for BluCore does not list any such thing. I also know of regional companies that do not use HBCD in their rigid foam products, so, as it stands I take issue (no offense) with your statement<i> ..."<span>Basically any…</span></i></p>
<p>Dave or Josh, could you please link a copy of the MSDS sheet you have from DOW, since the one I was have does not list HBCD or any brominated flame retardent as being used in DOW's formulation. Owen Corning, and Insulfoam, yes, but again DOW's specific MSDS for BluCore does not list any such thing. I also know of regional companies that do not use HBCD in their rigid foam products, so, as it stands I take issue (no offense) with your statement<i> ..."<span>Basically any construction-grade rigid foam polystyrene sheet insulation will have flame retardants"...</span></i></p>
<p>It may be that I was sent an old MSDS sheet or vice versa...or there is some other kind of 'mix-up' at play...which would be nice to resolve...</p>
<p>Thank you.<br/> <br/> <cite>Dave Love said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://community.theaquaponicsource.com/forum/topics/4778851:Topic:28266?groupUrl=raftdeepwaterculturegrowers&xg_source=activity&groupId=4778851%3AGroup%3A28261&id=4778851%3ATopic%3A28266&page=7#4778851Comment360328"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Hi Josh, </p>
<p>I agree, it is troubling to see brominated or other halogenated flame retardants on the MSDS ingredients list for Dow blueboard. Basically any construction-grade rigid foam polystyrene sheet insulation will have flame retardants, which is problematic-- if they leach they can be harmful to animals and humans </p>
<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brominated_flame_retardant" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brominated_flame_retardant</a></p>
<p>extruded styrafoam may not have this same issue, but it is good to ask the manufacturer for the MSDS</p>
<p><br/> <cite>Josh Fagan said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://aquaponicscommunity.com/forum/topics/4778851:Topic:28266?groupUrl=raftdeepwaterculturegrowers&xg_source=activity&groupId=4778851%3AGroup%3A28261&id=4778851%3ATopic%3A28266&page=3#4778851Comment79523"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Hey all, just joined group!</p>
<p>I don't intend to come off as ignorant, but all the foam mentioned will leach into both the water and plants, right? What am I missing?</p>
<p>Has anyone tried a wooden raft? Are there no other options out there besides foam products?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
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